Debate and Discussion

[Royal24s]

I tried to post something on the same general theme which ended up for reasons which escape me in Pandemonium. Once there people decided to convert it into an argument about racism, which also baffled me a bit.
In a quite separate thread here, the general level of standards in the country arose, and this pertains very much to my point, which for the avoidance of doubt, is that our ability to debate and discuss anything is not only hampered by restrictions upon speech and expression, but equally by the unbelievable dumbing down of the general population and their consequent now very limited ability to make or understand arguments.

I therefore post an example of a famous debate from really not that long ago and invite your comments as to whether this standard and style was preferable as a means of solving issues.

[Royal24s]

NOTE
This is NOT about the subject of the above discussion , but the manner and standards of logic used in the discussion.

[delboy1983]

It is an everyday occurrence on here to have threads highjacked,dismantled and ending up nothing like the subject of discussion you intended.
It ends up as someone else's agenda and deteriorates from there.
Textbook talkforum,just watch !

[Eaststand]

There is no debate any more, its all about who can pretend to be the most outraged for the most likes or retweets now.

On here, it's weird. There is no debate, and this section has deteriorated to the "blame brown people for everything" section, and it's been the same bigoted opinions repeated day in day out, over and over, Roy's been posting pretty much the exact same post for nearly a decade for instance. No one wants to talk or debate about anything fresh and interesting, it's always "all Muslims are paedos, I like saying this anonymously on here, because I darent say this in real life, so I'll just say it endlessly" or "black people cause all the crime".

And you know what? It's fucking boring. Debates about learning new things and conceding ground if you find something new out, but that doesn't happen on here, its just mainly bigoted ranted and name calling and insults if someone goes "hang on, that's pretty racist". This isn't debate.

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[Royal24s]

There is no debate any more, its all about who can pretend to be the most outraged for the most likes or retweets now.

On here, it's weird. There is no debate, and this section has deteriorated to the "blame brown people for everything" section, and it's been the same bigoted opinions repeated day in day out, over and over, Roy's been posting pretty much the exact same post for nearly a decade for instance. No one wants to talk or debate about anything fresh and interesting, it's always "all Muslims are paedos, I like saying this anonymously on here, because I darent say this in real life, so I'll just say it endlessly" or "black people cause all the crime".

And you know what? It's fucking boring. Debates about learning new things and conceding ground if you find something new out, but that doesn't happen on here, its just mainly bigoted ranted and name calling and insults if someone goes "hang on, that's pretty racist". This isn't debate.

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Exactly !
The reason I missed whatever connection might have seemed to exist to that is that I dont really read stuff which is aimed at particular people on a personal level. I don't mind if someone wants to do that really because I think free speech is far more important than whether someone is rude and whether someone else gets upset about it.
In any case, If you held a particular opinion about immigration, then it would be no good opposing the immigrants themselves, who are merely trying to get the best deal in life like anyone would, but perhaps oppose the system which promotes it.

Don't want to get too drawn into that though. As you say, debate is meant to mutually inform, possibly reach productive conclusions , learn about the viewpoints of others and even have a bit of fun whilst you're at it.
I don't look for it, but I'm quite happy to play insult poker with people and use the tactic of ridiculing the opponent, which is just like confronting bullies. Of course, we can't defend ourselves generally any more, so I suppose it's not surprising if some have got the impression that it's wrong - the result being that the bully appears to win, and that's one practise which destroys free debate.

Main thing though, I suppose , is that not only are so many people apparently too dumbed down to express themselves or grasp logical or higher thinking ,but they make it their business to try and silence anyone they think is " trying to be clever ", together with any hope of benefitting from such a process.

I posted that clip just to show how erudite debates often were in this country often were before dumbing down , and in the forlorn hope that anyone might be inspired to those standards.

[Carlos J]

It is an interesting debate, Royals, and as echo some of what East says and posted on your other thread and have posted here before, often it is, "ever decreasing circles of tedium with people of a closed mind. And that is sad."

Sometimes, very occasionally, a new subject will arise, and posters can show a different side from expected, which is good and shows not everyone is so entrenched in their views. I have seen it, do not expect me to quote when, and seen others agree with things their left/right oppos say.

It can happen, though seldomly there is good debate. Threads also get derailed easily and if i may take it off topic, the whole point of creating separate threads, the 'Another typical crime', 'the religion of peace', and I tried with the 'Christian thread'. Not just those for my knockers. But it was to keep other threads on topic. Sometimes it works.

I used to post here a lot more, but just do now when something interests me more than just a passing interest, though have to read it. I think many are like that. Though it can still often be an amusing read sometimes.

Less cunting, hopefully happening, a tad more leeway and respect to others' opinions. Basic stuff, but not everyone on the right is a racist/fascist and not everyone on the left is a commie/socialist. People know that but often seem to forget it.

[Royal24s]

Some excellent points Carlos .
Actually you’re proof that there’s some point in bothering to speak to people here !
You mention something at the end there which is most interesting. There’s an assumption that everyone must be right or left, which I know isn’t the case because I’m neither.
People imagine I’m “right” because believe socialism is not only complete bollocks but very destructive to those addicted to it. Not so in fact, but it goes further and the next step is to presume that I’m some big “racist “, which I’m not particularly, although I’d be lying if I pretended to care much about it. Personally I’d classify it as just one of many deliberately inflated non-issues to distract people from more important matters.
If anyone started harming minorities in a serious way I expect I’d be more inclined to defend them than most, but I’m not buying into this ridiculous obsession with pretending to be concerned every time someone is a bit rude about them.
It’s also ridiculous ( not your fault or anything to do with you) that everyone seems to have to prove they’re NOT racist to neo Puritan little tossers who seem to be on duty 24/7 watching out for political or intellectual heresies.

Interesting though. Didn’t expect thread to generate this much intelligently expressed stuff !

[Zambo]

Less cunting, hopefully happening, a tad more leeway and respect to others' opinions. Basic stuff, but not everyone on the right is a racist/fascist and not everyone on the left is a commie/socialist. People know that but often seem to forget it.

It's been said a thousand times, and that alone will make this the place as it is intended to be. If posters spent just a little more time thinking about the point others are trying to make, before diving in and responding what they perceived it to mean, it would help also.

You are not a racist if your are concerned about uncontrolled immigration

You are not a left wing activist if you want some private owned concerns to be run by the Government or you show concern about the introduction of more Grammar schools which will favour the advantaged.

Free speech is great when posts are respected and tolerated, but the problem comes when the reaction to them is full of bile and abuse just because they are disagreed with.

[Eaststand]

You are a racist if you think black people are born to kill and steal though.

[kancutlawns]

Less cunting, hopefully happening, a tad more leeway and respect to others' opinions. Basic stuff, but not everyone on the right is a racist/fascist and not everyone on the left is a commie/socialist. People know that but often seem to forget it.

It's been said a thousand times, and that alone will make this the place as it is intended to be. If posters spent just a little more time thinking about the point others are trying to make, before diving in and responding what they perceived it to mean, it would help also.

You are not a racist if your are concerned about uncontrolled immigration

You are not a left wing activist if you want some private owned concerns to be run by the Government or you show concern about the introduction of more Grammar schools which will favour the advantaged.

Free speech is great when posts are respected and tolerated, but the problem comes when the reaction to them is full of bile and abuse just because they are disagreed with.

That’s rather simplistic though. One of the problems that n this section could be characterised whenever there has been reports about a car driven into a crowd of people which immediately triggers a new thread where the two and two makes five, people of a certain religion are accused, the forum dullard then pastes a link to a DM article, more assertions about the yet unsubstantiated religion being paedos and murdering savages, ‘the other side’ trying to bring some rational thinking, that side being accused for pages of being apologists and being smeared before the whole thing dies out when the religion in question isn’t responsible.

This has happened a number of times yet no intervention from the mods. It seems to be OK for sub, Shab, Ralph and Hillman to be the target of abuse but when it’s the rightists, it’s about the leftists not accepting concerns about uncontrolled immigration.

There needs to be more balance, it’s as black and white as that.

[Eaststand]

yeah. Because Subs and shabs and ralph dont beg for protection and apologies for being called names, its perfectly fine. But because a certain poster gets outraged at people objecting to his view of the world and demands protection and apologies, he gets them. Is it a coincidence that his views are similar to a certain mods? Who knows. But it IS, not seems, incredibly lopsided and biased.

[Ralph]

Less cunting, hopefully happening, a tad more leeway and respect to others' opinions. Basic stuff, but not everyone on the right is a racist/fascist and not everyone on the left is a commie/socialist. People know that but often seem to forget it.

It's been said a thousand times, and that alone will make this the place as it is intended to be. If posters spent just a little more time thinking about the point others are trying to make, before diving in and responding what they perceived it to mean, it would help also.

You are not a racist if your are concerned about uncontrolled immigration

You are not a left wing activist if you want some private owned concerns to be run by the Government or you show concern about the introduction of more Grammar schools which will favour the advantaged.

Free speech is great when posts are respected and tolerated, but the problem comes when the reaction to them is full of bile and abuse just because they are disagreed with.

You’re not above using abusive language yourself. A moderator shouldn’t be talking about ‘libtards’ or any of the other terms of absuse you constantly use to describe anyone with an opinion to the left of your own. How the moderators behave sets the tone for the board.

[Eaststand]

Great post.

[kancutlawns]

yeah. Because Subs and shabs and ralph dont beg for protection and apologies for being called names, its perfectly fine. But because a certain poster gets outraged at people objecting to his view of the world and demands protection and apologies, he gets them. Is it a coincidence that his views are similar to a certain mods? Who knows. But it IS, not seems, incredibly lopsided and biased.

And he performs outrageous contortions by calling the other poster a racist himself. You really couldn’t make it up.

[Eaststand]

I know, he called me a bigot for ages! Because I wasnt tolerant of his beliefs!