Private medicine

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Hillman avenger
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Re: Private medicine

Post by Hillman avenger »

Royal24s wrote:NO !
YOU gave an example of bad treatment in the private sector to try and prove that State medicine is brilliant. All anyone's done is point out that this isn't logical by quoting examples of similar failings in the NHS.
You're the one who was trying to prove a ( wrong) assertion , but now you're passing the ball back and forward trying to get a draw out of it !

You really need to stop inventing stuff so you can disagree with it,
I said nothing about the NHS.
I said a private hospital not only delivered bad care , but carried on doing so taking money off people knowing it.That, if anything, is worse.
The general point is that if you want quicker treatment in nicer surroundings go private. Don't assume it will be BETTER treatment.
Listen to Talksport and let it be a lesson to you

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colinthewarriormonkey
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Re: Private medicine

Post by colinthewarriormonkey »

Hillman avenger wrote:
colinthewarriormonkey wrote:
Hillman avenger wrote:I know of two people who had procedures privately that had to be put right in the NHS.
In one case the person is now on lifetime medication as a result of the mistakes made.


But they would more than likely to be NHS doctors who did the original botched job.

The real scandal here is that the hospital themself wasn't liable for these operations that went wrong, relying on the doctors they contract to have the correct insurance and not doing the necessary checks to ensure that their insurance was in place.

No that was not the case
In one the person simply opted for private and the other did it because of waiting time.
The hospital's job is to employ competent people in the first place and to monitor what they do. The lack of insurance is just another failure.


Most "private" doctors particularly those who carry out invasive procedures also work for the NHS - it would be very rare to find one that didn't.
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Hillman avenger
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Re: Private medicine

Post by Hillman avenger »

Yes, I know that.
It would be interesting to know how well the comparative systems monitor what their doctors are doing.
Listen to Talksport and let it be a lesson to you

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Royal24s
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Re: Private medicine

Post by Royal24s »

There's no private "system" is there ?
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Ralph
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Re: Private medicine

Post by Ralph »

Healthcare should be based on need not your ability to pay.

We should aspire to a system where the billionaire has the same access to healthcare as a penniless tramp.

If the ruling class were told they couldn’t use money to bypass problems in the NHS the funding would increase overnight.

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colinthewarriormonkey
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Re: Private medicine

Post by colinthewarriormonkey »

Hillman avenger wrote:Yes, I know that.
It would be interesting to know how well the comparative systems monitor what their doctors are doing.


Well you clearly don't - because you said that they weren't NHS doctors.

As for monitoring, then any practising doctors fall under the GMC whether they work for the NHS or not.
Hillman avenger wrote:
colinthewarriormonkey wrote:
Hillman avenger wrote:I know of two people who had procedures privately that had to be put right in the NHS.
In one case the person is now on lifetime medication as a result of the mistakes made.


But they would more than likely to be NHS doctors who did the original botched job.

The real scandal here is that the hospital themself wasn't liable for these operations that went wrong, relying on the doctors they contract to have the correct insurance and not doing the necessary checks to ensure that their insurance was in place.

No that was not the case
In one the person simply opted for private and the other did it because of waiting time.
The hospital's job is to employ competent people in the first place and to monitor what they do. The lack of insurance is just another failure.
"The Cunt's Cunt."

"One desperate shithouse"

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colinthewarriormonkey
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Re: Private medicine

Post by colinthewarriormonkey »

Ralph wrote:Healthcare should be based on need not your ability to pay.

We should aspire to a system where the billionaire has the same access to healthcare as a penniless tramp.

If the ruling class were told they couldn’t use money to bypass problems in the NHS the funding would increase overnight.


That's mental, people going private pay into the NHS regardless of whether they have private medical insurance or not and by going private they are taking a burden off the NHS, so, therefore, poor people get treated quicker by the NHS because these "rich" people aren't taking up a place on the waiting list.

The vast majority of people with private healthcare aren't part of the ruling class.

Unless you are suggesting that as soon as you become an MP, you are no longer allowed to access private healthcare, so that you get an idea of what it is like to be part of the NHS system, in which case you have a point which I'd also extend to schooling.
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Ralph
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Re: Private medicine

Post by Ralph »

colinthewarriormonkey wrote:
Ralph wrote:Healthcare should be based on need not your ability to pay.

We should aspire to a system where the billionaire has the same access to healthcare as a penniless tramp.

If the ruling class were told they couldn’t use money to bypass problems in the NHS the funding would increase overnight.


That's mental, people going private pay into the NHS regardless of whether they have private medical insurance or not and by going private they are taking a burden off the NHS, so, therefore, poor people get treated quicker by the NHS because these rich people aren't taking up a place on the waiting list.


If the ruling class knew, when it comes to the crunch, they and their family are as dependent on the NHS as the penniless tramp, things would improve very quickly.

While the ruling class know they can buy their way out of problems they have created, nothing substantive will improve.

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colinthewarriormonkey
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Re: Private medicine

Post by colinthewarriormonkey »

Ralph wrote:
colinthewarriormonkey wrote:
Ralph wrote:Healthcare should be based on need not your ability to pay.

We should aspire to a system where the billionaire has the same access to healthcare as a penniless tramp.

If the ruling class were told they couldn’t use money to bypass problems in the NHS the funding would increase overnight.


That's mental, people going private pay into the NHS regardless of whether they have private medical insurance or not and by going private they are taking a burden off the NHS, so, therefore, poor people get treated quicker by the NHS because these rich people aren't taking up a place on the waiting list.


If the ruling class knew, when it comes to the crunch, they and their family are as dependent on the NHS as the penniless tramp, things would improve very quickly.

While the ruling class know they can buy their way out of problems they have created, nothing substantive will improve.


Interesting that you've selectively quoted my post to make it look like you are coming up with a point that I already made.
colinthewarriormonkey wrote:
Unless you are suggesting that as soon as you become an MP, you are no longer allowed to access private healthcare, so that you get an idea of what it is like to be part of the NHS system, in which case you have a point which I'd also extend to schooling.
"The Cunt's Cunt."

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Hillman avenger
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Re: Private medicine

Post by Hillman avenger »

colinthewarriormonkey wrote:
Ralph wrote:Healthcare should be based on need not your ability to pay.

We should aspire to a system where the billionaire has the same access to healthcare as a penniless tramp.

If the ruling class were told they couldn’t use money to bypass problems in the NHS the funding would increase overnight.


That's mental, people going private pay into the NHS regardless of whether they have private medical insurance or not and by going private they are taking a burden off the NHS, so, therefore, poor people get treated quicker by the NHS because these "rich" people aren't taking up a place on the waiting list.

The vast majority of people with private healthcare aren't part of the ruling class.

Unless you are suggesting that as soon as you become an MP, you are no longer allowed to access private healthcare, so that you get an idea of what it is like to be part of the NHS system, in which case you have a point which I'd also extend to schooling.

I worked in the GMC Fitness to Practice division for about 2 years.
I can tell you that only severe and prolonged malpractice reaches FTP and many of those fall by the wayside.
A doctor, particularly a GP, can be neglectful, incompetent or out-of-date for years without detection.
I can tell you more if you like.
BTW there is far more chance of a poor doctor being detected in a hospital than elsewhere.
This thread was originally about a provider who knew a doctor was failing, and had failed to properly supervise him and to check he was insured. But worst of all then continued to recruit patients for him.
But as it's been widened let's deal with the idea that private medicine takes the load off the NHS
No it doesn't.
It does not provide A and E, acute care, chronic condition management , paediatrics, gerontology, and a long list of other disciplines it can't make money out of. That is left to the NHS which will never refuse but may not have the resource to help soon enough.
Why does it not have the resource?
Under-funding
Short-termism which doesn't work when you are building hospitals and training nurses and doctors.
Encouraging skilled EU nationals to leave the system.
And being poached by the private sector.
There is no sensible debate about medicine where there are scarce resources without having a moral dimension. To me, as a society, we should have an understanding that access to medicine, while it is limited, is based on need and urgency and not ability to pay.
Listen to Talksport and let it be a lesson to you

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Ralph
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Re: Private medicine

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colinthewarriormonkey wrote:
Ralph wrote:
colinthewarriormonkey wrote:
Ralph wrote:Healthcare should be based on need not your ability to pay.

We should aspire to a system where the billionaire has the same access to healthcare as a penniless tramp.

If the ruling class were told they couldn’t use money to bypass problems in the NHS the funding would increase overnight.


That's mental, people going private pay into the NHS regardless of whether they have private medical insurance or not and by going private they are taking a burden off the NHS, so, therefore, poor people get treated quicker by the NHS because these rich people aren't taking up a place on the waiting list.


If the ruling class knew, when it comes to the crunch, they and their family are as dependent on the NHS as the penniless tramp, things would improve very quickly.

While the ruling class know they can buy their way out of problems they have created, nothing substantive will improve.


Interesting that you've selectively quoted my post to make it look like you are coming up with a point that I already made.
colinthewarriormonkey wrote:
Unless you are suggesting that as soon as you become an MP, you are no longer allowed to access private healthcare, so that you get an idea of what it is like to be part of the NHS system, in which case you have a point which I'd also extend to schooling.


I’m suggesting we end private healthcare full stop. Healthcare should be given according to need not your ability to pay.

Letting people access better treatment & jump queues because they have money is immoral - and allows the ruling class to run down the NHS safe in the knowledge they and the people around them will be OK.

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Royal24s
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Re: Private medicine

Post by Royal24s »

Ralph wrote:Healthcare should be based on need not your ability to pay.

We should aspire to a system where the billionaire has the same access to healthcare as a penniless tramp.

If the ruling class were told they couldn’t use money to bypass problems in the NHS the funding would increase overnight.



You don't mind how badly off the poor are as long as no one is allowed to be successful or wealthy do you ?
If you want to define what the NHS should aspire to, what about universal quality of service?

The "ruling class" aren't generally rich , but rich people will always be able to go abroad for decent standards if necessary , so it's not worth you getting upset about it.
I'm sure you'd like to introduce some soviet style law prohibiting foreign travel for medical treatment, but not even Jeremy Corbyn would have done that
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Re: Private medicine

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Fat or Obese people should be put on the bottom of waiting-lists in my opinion. If you choose to abuse your body you should not be placed above people who try to live healthy lifestyles. It's sort of in effect insofar as if a person needs a hip replacement say they will only get it if they aren't porkers. But that's just due to risk.

Private medicine exists already though right? If you've got the dough you can go. Otherwise spin the wheel and take your chance with the NHS. I'm happy with that roulette wheel. Get the fuck off your fat arse, earn some money, and pay for decent healthcare.
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Re: Private medicine

Post by Carlos J »

carcinogen wrote:Fat or Obese people should be put on the bottom of waiting-lists in my opinion. If you choose to abuse your body you should not be placed above people who try to live healthy lifestyles. It's sort of in effect insofar as if a person needs a hip replacement say they will only get it if they aren't porkers. But that's just due to risk.

Private medicine exists already though right? If you've got the dough you can go. Otherwise spin the wheel and take your chance with the NHS. I'm happy with that roulette wheel. Get the fuck off your fat arse, earn some money, and pay for decent healthcare.

Astute, carc. but what about the big boned? They not be fat.

I've not used the NHS for years and am getting so annoyed. Just stay away fatties, enveloping my space.
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Royal24s
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Re: Private medicine

Post by Royal24s »

How could Emily Thornberry argue for a policy like that ?
Actually though it's a serious point that the NHS increasingly discriminates against people who haven't lived the particular lifestyle they recommend - which is rather like me refusing to represent criminal clients if they've got a history of dishonesty.
Most of my clients were very dishonest of course, just as most clients of the NHS have led unhealthy lives in one way or another.
If we're going to let the state operate a monopoly in medicine , then they really shouldn't be allowed to pick and choose who they'll treat.
Alternatively , those who can prove that they smoke, drink or eat too many take cream cakes should be exempt from the taxes and NHS contributions which fund the somewhat sinister state system.
As it is they'll spend your money on persuading pre pubescent children to have a sex change and fund abortions, but they don't consider dental care or treatment important enough to include. Similarly, they increasingly refuse to use drugs and treatments which they consider too expensive.
I appreciate that it's heresy to question the NHS , just as it is to question climate change or gay marriage, but the reality is that it's not working very well in terms of what it sets out to do and it's getting worse all the time - therefore it's quite obvious that people will go elswhere for treatment when they need it, and I don't see how you can blame them
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