Left-wing/right-wing bollocks

[Hillman avenger]

It's getting worse.

Virtually every thread now descends , some quicker than others, into trading right-wing/left-wing labels.

It's a lazy and ineffective way of having debate.

They are a substitute for thought and only suggest that the author really doesn't know how to counter arguments. So they ultimately undermine the credibility of the poster.

It has reached farcical proportions today with the description of Kenneth Clarke as "left-wing". All he is doing is pointing out , from a position of some authority, the sheer vapidity of Johnson's stance and the trail of incompetence he has left behind him. And he's dead right ( in the sense of, correct).

We could really do without the Tory leadership fight degenerating into another left-right silliness. It's too important. It's distressing to see somebody whose whole life has been based on selfishness and ego, who can't be arsed to understand the case for the causes he claims to support , opposed by such a drone as Hunt. We should all be angry to see the leadership of this country being the plaything of two such people.

The pigeonholing is stupid. As I have already said, not all of the Conservative Party is right wing, it is all relative.
You agree it is stupid, but then try to go on and do it.

Nope I said imo, Clarke is not right wing. I haven't pigeonholed him. You appear to say I have because you disagree with that. Or are there any other reasons?

You mention Kenneth Clarke, are you saying he is right wing because he is a Tory?
No. That's exactly the point. He is a pragmatist and he is calling out the shitshow Johnson is generating.
Everyone has their own ideas of what is right and what is left, but what we don't need is people on high horses lecturing and talking down to others as you have done in this thread.
No I am simply asking for better debate than the childish labelling.

That is dictating how others should debate and discuss. It might be childish to you for someone to say that in their opinion a politician is left wing or right wing, but what's the big deal? I consider a number of posters on here to be immature, but it's not against the forum rules. Try and be a little more tolerant

Not all people's views are 'farcical' just because they don't match yours.
Go read it again. Not what I said.

Yes you did, you said that because a politician was labelled left wing, the debate had reached farcical proportions

We all have ideas of what is left and what is right. They are opinions and not facts, but it doesn't give the likes of you the right to dismiss them or ridicule them.

Your idea of what is left wing and right wing differs to mine. So what, who wins, who gets to hold the 'I am right' Talkforum trophy aloft. In my opinion Kenneth Clarke identifies with economically and socially liberal views. You obvious disagree,
Didn't say that either
but don't try telling and maneuvering others into posting in a way you want them to post.
Let's just try engaging brains

That's how it came across

I am pointing out that the whole left-wing/right-wing thing gets us nowhere. Not least because as soon as someone is called on one or the other, people attribute to them a whole set of beliefs that they have never claimed to ascribe to.

And they do that rather than argue the issue , and I don't know if that is because they can't. or because they are too lazy to.

This whole labelling thing is why our political parties are struggling. People now, for whatever reason are much more likely to hold a composite of views that don't sit clearly in one camp or the other. The parties can't cope with it. That's why Farage is having joy. One issue. Not a basis for a government, but easy to contain, motivate and communicate,

And another example of this brainless labelling is the diatribes about socialism ( see above). I don't see ANYONE here who looks like a socialist. Anyone who knows me would find the idea laughable. There has been no socialism of any import in the UK for more than 40 years. So why is it being dragged into arguments? It seems to be because the author of those posts thinks that to put people in that box wins arguments. It doesn't; very, very far from it. It is just silly and has been for decades.

[Zambo]

Odd how some who appear to hold many traditionally right wing views are uncomfortable with the label. Perhaps taking a political compass quiz would help them to recognise where their own beliefs lie. Here's a good one: https://www.politicalcompass.org/test

If you are talking about me, I'm quite happy to be labelled. I may not agree with it, but I'm not going to lose any sleep about it. I don't see anything wrong with someone forming an opinion from what someone posts on an internet forum, that's how internet forums roll..

[Zambo]

It's getting worse.

Virtually every thread now descends , some quicker than others, into trading right-wing/left-wing labels.

It's a lazy and ineffective way of having debate.

They are a substitute for thought and only suggest that the author really doesn't know how to counter arguments. So they ultimately undermine the credibility of the poster.

It has reached farcical proportions today with the description of Kenneth Clarke as "left-wing". All he is doing is pointing out , from a position of some authority, the sheer vapidity of Johnson's stance and the trail of incompetence he has left behind him. And he's dead right ( in the sense of, correct).

We could really do without the Tory leadership fight degenerating into another left-right silliness. It's too important. It's distressing to see somebody whose whole life has been based on selfishness and ego, who can't be arsed to understand the case for the causes he claims to support , opposed by such a drone as Hunt. We should all be angry to see the leadership of this country being the plaything of two such people.

The pigeonholing is stupid. As I have already said, not all of the Conservative Party is right wing, it is all relative.
You agree it is stupid, but then try to go on and do it.

Nope I said imo, Clarke is not right wing. I haven't pigeonholed him. You appear to say I have because you disagree with that. Or are there any other reasons?

You mention Kenneth Clarke, are you saying he is right wing because he is a Tory?
No. That's exactly the point. He is a pragmatist and he is calling out the shitshow Johnson is generating.
Everyone has their own ideas of what is right and what is left, but what we don't need is people on high horses lecturing and talking down to others as you have done in this thread.
No I am simply asking for better debate than the childish labelling.

That is dictating how others should debate and discuss. It might be childish to you for someone to say that in their opinion a politician is left wing or right wing, but what's the big deal? I consider a number of posters on here to be immature, but it's not against the forum rules. Try and be a little more tolerant

Not all people's views are 'farcical' just because they don't match yours.
Go read it again. Not what I said.

Yes you did, you said that because a politician was labelled left wing, the debate had reached farcical proportions

We all have ideas of what is left and what is right. They are opinions and not facts, but it doesn't give the likes of you the right to dismiss them or ridicule them.

Your idea of what is left wing and right wing differs to mine. So what, who wins, who gets to hold the 'I am right' Talkforum trophy aloft. In my opinion Kenneth Clarke identifies with economically and socially liberal views. You obvious disagree,
Didn't say that either
but don't try telling and maneuvering others into posting in a way you want them to post.
Let's just try engaging brains

That's how it came across

I am pointing out that the whole left-wing/right-wing thing gets us nowhere. Not least because as soon as someone is called on one or the other, people attribute to them a whole set of beliefs that they have never claimed to ascribe to.

There are a lot of things posted on here which gets us nowhere, none more so that the repetitive nature of many people's posts. You just have to be tolerant of that and move on

And they do that rather than argue the issue , and I don't know if that is because they can't. or because they are too lazy to.

This whole labelling thing is why our political parties are struggling. People now, for whatever reason are much more likely to hold a composite of views that don't sit clearly in one camp or the other. The parties can't cope with it. That's why Farage is having joy. One issue. Not a basis for a government, but easy to contain, motivate and communicate,

And another example of this brainless labelling is the diatribes about socialism ( see above). I don't see ANYONE here who looks like a socialist. Anyone who knows me would find the idea laughable. There has been no socialism of any import in the UK for more than 40 years. So why is it being dragged into arguments? It seems to be because the author of those posts thinks that to put people in that box wins arguments. It doesn't; very, very far from it. It is just silly and has been for decades.

People will naturally form opinions from what people post. If someone posts which gives the impression to another or others that they are a Socialist, that is what they will get labelled with. It may be totally wrong, but thats how it goes. I have been labelled hundreds of times, and sometimes it pisses you off because to me it's a complete load of bollocks, but it's soon forgotten

[Royal24s]

See what I mean?
An entirely self-contained post

I think you're saying that it completely answered your points. Thank you.
Let's be clear though - are you trying to disassociate yourself with the left after over a decade of being its spokesman here ?
Is that because you've finally realised that you lost the argument ?

[Royal24s]

Discussing politics then someone brings religion into it
#irrational

How is it possible to ignore religion in politics ?
Ignoring the fact that both socialism and secularism are religions in themselves, how could you ignore your religious beliefs in matters such as abortion or homosexual "marriage "?

[Roy Twing]

Odd how some who appear to hold many traditionally right wing views are uncomfortable with the label. Perhaps taking a political compass quiz would help them to recognise where their own beliefs lie. Here's a good one: https://www.politicalcompass.org/test

That's been covered on here more than once.

[Roy Twing]

Perhaps we should qualify it in the way "New" Labour did. I suggest that we use the term "left behind" instead, which has the advantage of adding two very apposite shades of meaning with the addition of only one word.

'Right & wrong' seems obvious, and apt.

[subsub]

Discussing politics then someone brings religion into it
#irrational

How is it possible to ignore religion in politics ?
Ignoring the fact that both socialism and secularism are religions in themselves, how could you ignore your religious beliefs in matters such as abortion or homosexual "marriage "?

Socialism isn't a religion; it's a political standpoint.
Secularism isn't a religion, either; it's a principle.
Do try and keep up.

And your use of quote marks around homosexual marriage speaks volumes about you.

[Vespa]

Discussing politics then someone brings religion into it
#irrational

How is it possible to ignore religion in politics ?
Ignoring the fact that both socialism and secularism are religions in themselves, how could you ignore your religious beliefs in matters such as abortion or homosexual "marriage "?

Socialism isn't a religion; it's a political standpoint.
Secularism isn't a religion, either; it's a principle.
Do try and keep up.

And your use of quote marks around homosexual marriage speaks volumes about you.

If Jezza Hunt came out and said he was a follower of Thor would people still be arguing that religion makes his opinions valid?

If your excuse for shit idea is that God said it, you're an inferior mind.

[Jon Gout]

Odd how some who appear to hold many traditionally right wing views are uncomfortable with the label. Perhaps taking a political compass quiz would help them to recognise where their own beliefs lie. Here's a good one: https://www.politicalcompass.org/test

That's been covered on here more than once.

Covering something more than once doesn't mean the same conversation isn't had a thousand times.

[m4rkb]

For me it all gets silly when we the terms far right and alt-right started to be used.
They've been attributed to anything right wing and declared extreme. But that was not enough. People who believe in effective law and order are literally nazis.

That Guardian twat Owen Jones is the worst example I can think of who does this, closely followed by right on celebrities and then indoctrinated kids under the auspices of their left wing teachers.

Right wing values are predominantly personal responsibility for your own life and behaviour while left wing values are that everything can be ran and mopped up by the state and that anyone outside of this is some sort of social pariah . It has morphed into right wing values being nothing but motivated by hate, racism and nationalism. Fuck knows how right wing immigrants fit into this.

To me they can be easily pidgeonholed. Right wing = realism. Left wing = dreamworld ideology.

As an example Britain can only have a certain amount of immigration before its infrastructure crumbles. The right recognise this and sets out quotas while the left declare it racist and we can support the whole world coming here.

I don' mind proper northern working class lefties myself as they live it, but when they live in Islington in a £1M flat virtue signalling about the poor they can just fucking do one.

[Hillman avenger]

See what I mean?
An entirely self-contained post

I think you're saying that it completely answered your points. Thank you.
Let's be clear though - are you trying to disassociate yourself with the left after over a decade of being its spokesman here ?
Is that because you've finally realised that you lost the argument ?

You just cannot or will not get it
I am nobody's spokesman on here.

[m4rkb]

You're a spokesman for the privileged left.

[Royal24s]

Discussing politics then someone brings religion into it
#irrational

How is it possible to ignore religion in politics ?
Ignoring the fact that both socialism and secularism are religions in themselves, how could you ignore your religious beliefs in matters such as abortion or homosexual "marriage "?

Socialism isn't a religion; it's a political standpoint.
Secularism isn't a religion, either; it's a principle.
Do try and keep up.

And your use of quote marks around homosexual marriage speaks volumes about you.

I'm pleased that I made my feelings clear for you.
In fact though, it's very hard to define a religion properly, (I'm sure you can find a dictionary entry , which is different ) , and many academics would certainly include both socialism and secularism as religions.
Their reasoning is much more complex than this, but would include that both require faith since you cannot prove either of them.

[Royal24s]

See what I mean?
An entirely self-contained post

I think you're saying that it completely answered your points. Thank you.
Let's be clear though - are you trying to disassociate yourself with the left after over a decade of being its spokesman here ?
Is that because you've finally realised that you lost the argument ?

You just cannot or will not get it
I am nobody's spokesman on here.

You've been advocating socialist policies here for over a decade then for some strange reason denying that you're a socialist , but you are.

Perhaps some small voice of reason or conscience inside told you that you were talking nonsense and so you wanted to retain that get out clause ?

At this point you want to leave the sinking ship quietly and with some face saving comments, but it's not convincing. It'd be more plausible if you just admitted that you were wrong.