Private medicine

[carcinogen]

How could Emily Thornberry argue for a policy like that ?
Actually though it's a serious point that the NHS increasingly discriminates against people who haven't lived the particular lifestyle they recommend - which is rather like me refusing to represent criminal clients if they've got a history of dishonesty.
Most of my clients were very dishonest of course, just as most clients of the NHS have led unhealthy lives in one way or another.
If we're going to let the state operate a monopoly in medicine , then they really shouldn't be allowed to pick and choose who they'll treat.
Alternatively , those who can prove that they smoke, drink or eat too many take cream cakes should be exempt from the taxes and NHS contributions which fund the somewhat sinister state system.
As it is they'll spend your money on persuading pre pubescent children to have a sex change and fund abortions, but they don't consider dental care or treatment important enough to include. Similarly, they increasingly refuse to use drugs and treatments which they consider too expensive.
I appreciate that it's heresy to question the NHS , just as it is to question climate change or gay marriage, but the reality is that it's not working very well in terms of what it sets out to do and it's getting worse all the time - therefore it's quite obvious that people will go elswhere for treatment when they need it, and I don't see how you can blame them

Listen man, I don't know what you are using, but all your paragraphs merge into one. It's un-readable on this end. Cheers.

[VeritasVincit]

Not quite the same as 'Fat or Obese people should be put on the bottom of waiting-lists in my opinion' as proposed by Mr. Carcinogen [who I always imagined to be a rough yob from Norfolk but now realise, after seeing his picture, that he is a very fanciable lady].
An ex-colleague and a family friend, both in need of hip replacements were told; lose weight, lots of it, or no operation.

[colinthewarriormonkey]

Healthcare should be based on need not your ability to pay.

We should aspire to a system where the billionaire has the same access to healthcare as a penniless tramp.

If the ruling class were told they couldn’t use money to bypass problems in the NHS the funding would increase overnight.

That's mental, people going private pay into the NHS regardless of whether they have private medical insurance or not and by going private they are taking a burden off the NHS, so, therefore, poor people get treated quicker by the NHS because these "rich" people aren't taking up a place on the waiting list.

The vast majority of people with private healthcare aren't part of the ruling class.

Unless you are suggesting that as soon as you become an MP, you are no longer allowed to access private healthcare, so that you get an idea of what it is like to be part of the NHS system, in which case you have a point which I'd also extend to schooling.

I worked in the GMC Fitness to Practice division for about 2 years.
I can tell you that only severe and prolonged malpractice reaches FTP and many of those fall by the wayside.
A doctor, particularly a GP, can be neglectful, incompetent or out-of-date for years without detection.
I can tell you more if you like.
BTW there is far more chance of a poor doctor being detected in a hospital than elsewhere.
This thread was originally about a provider who knew a doctor was failing, and had failed to properly supervise him and to check he was insured. But worst of all then continued to recruit patients for him.
But as it's been widened let's deal with the idea that private medicine takes the load off the NHS
No it doesn't.
It does not provide A and E, acute care, chronic condition management , paediatrics, gerontology, and a long list of other disciplines it can't make money out of. That is left to the NHS which will never refuse but may not have the resource to help soon enough.
Why does it not have the resource?
Under-funding
Short-termism which doesn't work when you are building hospitals and training nurses and doctors.
Encouraging skilled EU nationals to leave the system.
And being poached by the private sector.
There is no sensible debate about medicine where there are scarce resources without having a moral dimension. To me, as a society, we should have an understanding that access to medicine, while it is limited, is based on need and urgency and not ability to pay.

Hillman you claim to have worked in every job that is relevant to every thread on this board.

You must be about 170 years old to have fitted them all in.


As for a couple of your other points, it DOES take a load off the NHS they carry out procedures that would normally be carried out by the NHS, therefore it IS taking some load off - to suggest it doesn't is absurd. It also provides the NHS with extra cash in many instances.

As for EU nationals leaving, it's got fuck all to do with Private health companies and everything to do with Brexit.

[Vespa]

I thought about becoming a doctor, the idea of killing people once and while put me off.

[Royal24s]

How could Emily Thornberry argue for a policy like that ?
Actually though it's a serious point that the NHS increasingly discriminates against people who haven't lived the particular lifestyle they recommend - which is rather like me refusing to represent criminal clients if they've got a history of dishonesty.
Most of my clients were very dishonest of course, just as most clients of the NHS have led unhealthy lives in one way or another.
If we're going to let the state operate a monopoly in medicine , then they really shouldn't be allowed to pick and choose who they'll treat.
Alternatively , those who can prove that they smoke, drink or eat too many take cream cakes should be exempt from the taxes and NHS contributions which fund the somewhat sinister state system.
As it is they'll spend your money on persuading pre pubescent children to have a sex change and fund abortions, but they don't consider dental care or treatment important enough to include. Similarly, they increasingly refuse to use drugs and treatments which they consider too expensive.
I appreciate that it's heresy to question the NHS , just as it is to question climate change or gay marriage, but the reality is that it's not working very well in terms of what it sets out to do and it's getting worse all the time - therefore it's quite obvious that people will go elswhere for treatment when they need it, and I don't see how you can blame them

Listen man, I don't know what you are using, but all your paragraphs merge into one. It's un-readable on this end. Cheers.

I'm just using the Qwerty keyboard on my iPad. I'm not getting paid for this stuff you know , but I appreciate the feedback , and I'll try to do better next time.

[Roy Twing]

How could Emily Thornberry argue for a policy like that ?
Actually though it's a serious point that the NHS increasingly discriminates against people who haven't lived the particular lifestyle they recommend - which is rather like me refusing to represent criminal clients if they've got a history of dishonesty.

Most of my clients were very dishonest of course, just as most clients of the NHS have led unhealthy lives in one way or another.
If we're going to let the state operate a monopoly in medicine , then they really shouldn't be allowed to pick and choose who they'll treat.
Alternatively , those who can prove that they smoke, drink or eat too many take cream cakes should be exempt from the taxes and NHS contributions which fund the somewhat sinister state system.

As it is they'll spend your money on persuading pre pubescent children to have a sex change and fund abortions, but they don't consider dental care or treatment important enough to include. Similarly, they increasingly refuse to use drugs and treatments which they consider too expensive.

I appreciate that it's heresy to question the NHS , just as it is to question climate change or gay marriage, but the reality is that it's not working very well in terms of what it sets out to do and it's getting worse all the time - therefore it's quite obvious that people will go elswhere for treatment when they need it, and I don't see how you can blame them

Listen man, I don't know what you are using, but all your paragraphs merge into one. It's un-readable on this end. Cheers.

I'm just using the Qwerty keyboard on my iPad. I'm not getting paid for this stuff you know , but I appreciate the feedback , and I'll try to do better next time.

Seemed ok to me.

[Zambo]

How could Emily Thornberry argue for a policy like that ? Actually though it's a serious point that the NHS increasingly discriminates against people who haven't lived the particular lifestyle they recommend - which is rather like me refusing to represent criminal clients if they've got a history of dishonesty.

Most of my clients were very dishonest of course, just as most clients of the NHS have led unhealthy lives in one way or another. If we're going to let the state operate a monopoly in medicine , then they really shouldn't be allowed to pick and choose who they'll treat.

Alternatively , those who can prove that they smoke, drink or eat too many take cream cakes should be exempt from the taxes and NHS contributions which fund the somewhat sinister state system.

As it is they'll spend your money on persuading pre pubescent children to have a sex change and fund abortions, but they don't consider dental care or treatment important enough to include. Similarly, they increasingly refuse to use drugs and treatments which they consider too expensive.

I appreciate that it's heresy to question the NHS , just as it is to question climate change or gay marriage, but the reality is that it's not working very well in terms of what it sets out to do and it's getting worse all the time - therefore it's quite obvious that people will go elswhere for treatment when they need it, and I don't see how you can blame them

Listen man, I don't know what you are using, but all your paragraphs merge into one. It's un-readable on this end. Cheers.

I'm just using the Qwerty keyboard on my iPad. I'm not getting paid for this stuff you know , but I appreciate the feedback , and I'll try to do better next time.

Seemed ok to me.

Does that look any better in the quote in my post? All it took was a a hit on the big key with an arrow to take the cursor to the next line.

I notice Hillmam doesn't use this very often, so I'm wondering if he and Royals are the same poster.

[kancutlawns]

How could Emily Thornberry argue for a policy like that ? Actually though it's a serious point that the NHS increasingly discriminates against people who haven't lived the particular lifestyle they recommend - which is rather like me refusing to represent criminal clients if they've got a history of dishonesty.

Most of my clients were very dishonest of course, just as most clients of the NHS have led unhealthy lives in one way or another. If we're going to let the state operate a monopoly in medicine , then they really shouldn't be allowed to pick and choose who they'll treat.

Alternatively , those who can prove that they smoke, drink or eat too many take cream cakes should be exempt from the taxes and NHS contributions which fund the somewhat sinister state system.

As it is they'll spend your money on persuading pre pubescent children to have a sex change and fund abortions, but they don't consider dental care or treatment important enough to include. Similarly, they increasingly refuse to use drugs and treatments which they consider too expensive.

I appreciate that it's heresy to question the NHS , just as it is to question climate change or gay marriage, but the reality is that it's not working very well in terms of what it sets out to do and it's getting worse all the time - therefore it's quite obvious that people will go elswhere for treatment when they need it, and I don't see how you can blame them

Listen man, I don't know what you are using, but all your paragraphs merge into one. It's un-readable on this end. Cheers.

I'm just using the Qwerty keyboard on my iPad. I'm not getting paid for this stuff you know , but I appreciate the feedback , and I'll try to do better next time.

Seemed ok to me.

Does that look any better in the quote in my post? All it took was a a hit on the big key with an arrow to take the cursor to the next line.

I notice Hillmam doesn't use this very often, so I'm wondering if he and Royals are the same poster.

I’m not sure if carc was talking about the layout or the content though.

Royals, cab you not truncate your posts? There’s a significant amount of a TL:DR about many of them. People don’t want to trawl through reams and reams of repeated material and don’t think much of what looks like propaganda against looked down on parts of the population.

I for one don’t come on here to read verbose polemics because more is very much less for me. They add no value at all and as Hillman’s posts display a level of arrogance and willy waving which believe me we don’t want to see.

[colinthewarriormonkey]

I thought about becoming a doctor, the idea of killing people once and while put me off.

Yep, a mate of mine has had 5 patients die in their department, 4 of them were during procedures done by 1 doctor, who has been working there for 20 years and is by all accounts absolutely excellent at his job - he's just had a really unlucky year (not as unlucky as the patients obviously) no procedures in hospital are without risk - a lot of people don't seem to realise that.

[JudgeTedd]

How could Emily Thornberry argue for a policy like that ? Actually though it's a serious point that the NHS increasingly discriminates against people who haven't lived the particular lifestyle they recommend - which is rather like me refusing to represent criminal clients if they've got a history of dishonesty.

Most of my clients were very dishonest of course, just as most clients of the NHS have led unhealthy lives in one way or another. If we're going to let the state operate a monopoly in medicine , then they really shouldn't be allowed to pick and choose who they'll treat.

Alternatively , those who can prove that they smoke, drink or eat too many take cream cakes should be exempt from the taxes and NHS contributions which fund the somewhat sinister state system.

As it is they'll spend your money on persuading pre pubescent children to have a sex change and fund abortions, but they don't consider dental care or treatment important enough to include. Similarly, they increasingly refuse to use drugs and treatments which they consider too expensive.

I appreciate that it's heresy to question the NHS , just as it is to question climate change or gay marriage, but the reality is that it's not working very well in terms of what it sets out to do and it's getting worse all the time - therefore it's quite obvious that people will go elswhere for treatment when they need it, and I don't see how you can blame them

Listen man, I don't know what you are using, but all your paragraphs merge into one. It's un-readable on this end. Cheers.

I'm just using the Qwerty keyboard on my iPad. I'm not getting paid for this stuff you know , but I appreciate the feedback , and I'll try to do better next time.

Seemed ok to me.

Does that look any better in the quote in my post? All it took was a a hit on the big key with an arrow to take the cursor to the next line.

I notice Hillmam doesn't use this very often, so I'm wondering if he and Royals are the same poster.

I’m not sure if carc was talking about the layout or the content though.

Royals, cab you not truncate your posts? There’s a significant amount of a TL:DR about many of them. People don’t want to trawl through reams and reams of repeated material and don’t think much of what looks like propaganda against looked down on parts of the population.

I for one don’t come on here to read verbose polemics because more is very much less for me. They add no value at all and as Hillman’s posts display a level of arrogance and willy waving which believe me we don’t want to see.

I have to say I find Royals and Hillman’s posts quite amusing. The thought that they both think they can change the others mind makes me think there’s hope for all of us.

[kancutlawns]

Well indeed and that they think embellishing their list of achievements on here impresses everyone. It doesn’t. I’d actually like to see err redacted copies of their CVs

[Royal24s]

I don't think I can change Hillman's mind, and I'm sure he doesn't think he can change mine.

It's more an amusing little game than anything else.

I'm sorry to dissapoint anyone, but we're not going to change anything here. It's more about having a bit of fun and conversation I think. Something to do while your sitting down to rest your bad back or having a coffee.

It's a bit like the modern version of reading the newspaper ,( I recommend the Daily Mail for accuracy and unbiased coverage incidentally), or doing a crossword , but it's interactive.

Quite a few of my posts aren't really serious you know , ( sometimes they are), and part of that is the "double act" with Hillman which has developed.

I don't find it hard or time consuming to bang out a few wordies so I do that to contribute, rather than in the hope of changing the world, and if it's not to anyone's taste they don't have to read it.

I don't read it myself actually, which is why I sometimes have to edit it when I notice a typo because I know Hillman will be down on me like a ton of bricks if that happens.

[kancutlawns]

I don't think I can change Hillman's mind, and I'm sure he doesn't think he can change mine.

It's more an amusing little game than anything else.

I'm sorry to dissapoint anyone, but we're not going to change anything here. It's more about having a bit of fun and conversation I think. Something to do while your sitting down to rest your bad back or having a coffee.

It's a bit like the modern version of reading the newspaper ,( I recommend the Daily Mail for accuracy and unbiased coverage incidentally), or doing a crossword , but it's interactive.

Quite a few of my posts aren't really serious you know , ( sometimes they are), and part of that is the "double act" with Hillman which has developed.

I don't find it hard or time consuming to bang out a few wordies so I do that to contribute, rather than in the hope of changing the world, and if it's not to anyone's taste they don't have to read it.

I don't read it myself actually, which is why I sometimes have to edit it when I notice a typo because I know Hillman will be down on me like a ton of bricks if that happens.

It’s not amusing really, just very tiresome for the rest of time with both of you boring us daily with verbose yarns that could be cut down to a tenth of what you throw at us.

Seriously Royals, do you not consider that many of us are actually quite knowledgable and fully functioning adults who don’t need you two obsessives to hog the limelight thinking you possess superior knowledge because believe me, you don’t.

[Zambo]

I don't think I can change Hillman's mind, and I'm sure he doesn't think he can change mine.

It's more an amusing little game than anything else.

I'm sorry to dissapoint anyone, but we're not going to change anything here. It's more about having a bit of fun and conversation I think. Something to do while your sitting down to rest your bad back or having a coffee.

It's a bit like the modern version of reading the newspaper ,( I recommend the Daily Mail for accuracy and unbiased coverage incidentally), or doing a crossword , but it's interactive.

Get your hard hat out.

Quite a few of my posts aren't really serious you know , ( sometimes they are), and part of that is the "double act" with Hillman which has developed.

Bit of a risk to admit that.

I don't find it hard or time consuming to bang out a few wordies so I do that to contribute, rather than in the hope of changing the world, and if it's not to anyone's taste they don't have to read it.

I don't read it myself actually, which is why I sometimes have to edit it when I notice a typo because I know Hillman will be down on me like a ton of bricks if that happens.

[Hillman avenger]

Healthcare should be based on need not your ability to pay.

We should aspire to a system where the billionaire has the same access to healthcare as a penniless tramp.

If the ruling class were told they couldn’t use money to bypass problems in the NHS the funding would increase overnight.

That's mental, people going private pay into the NHS regardless of whether they have private medical insurance or not and by going private they are taking a burden off the NHS, so, therefore, poor people get treated quicker by the NHS because these "rich" people aren't taking up a place on the waiting list.

The vast majority of people with private healthcare aren't part of the ruling class.

Unless you are suggesting that as soon as you become an MP, you are no longer allowed to access private healthcare, so that you get an idea of what it is like to be part of the NHS system, in which case you have a point which I'd also extend to schooling.

I worked in the GMC Fitness to Practice division for about 2 years.
I can tell you that only severe and prolonged malpractice reaches FTP and many of those fall by the wayside.
A doctor, particularly a GP, can be neglectful, incompetent or out-of-date for years without detection.
I can tell you more if you like.
BTW there is far more chance of a poor doctor being detected in a hospital than elsewhere.
This thread was originally about a provider who knew a doctor was failing, and had failed to properly supervise him and to check he was insured. But worst of all then continued to recruit patients for him.
But as it's been widened let's deal with the idea that private medicine takes the load off the NHS
No it doesn't.
It does not provide A and E, acute care, chronic condition management , paediatrics, gerontology, and a long list of other disciplines it can't make money out of. That is left to the NHS which will never refuse but may not have the resource to help soon enough.
Why does it not have the resource?
Under-funding
Short-termism which doesn't work when you are building hospitals and training nurses and doctors.
Encouraging skilled EU nationals to leave the system.
And being poached by the private sector.
There is no sensible debate about medicine where there are scarce resources without having a moral dimension. To me, as a society, we should have an understanding that access to medicine, while it is limited, is based on need and urgency and not ability to pay.

Hillman you claim to have worked in every job that is relevant to every thread on this board.

You must be about 170 years old to have fitted them all in.


As for a couple of your other points, it DOES take a load off the NHS they carry out procedures that would normally be carried out by the NHS, therefore it IS taking some load off - to suggest it doesn't is absurd. It also provides the NHS with extra cash in many instances.

As for EU nationals leaving, it's got fuck all to do with Private health companies and everything to do with Brexit.

1. I ran my private consulting business and over about 2 years ran a project within Fitness to Practice, in both London and Manchester. It was not full-time and probably amounted to about 8 days a month. I had to work with the director , senior managers and team leaders. OK? While I was there they got the results from the Dame Janet Smith report on Shipman.
2. Yes procedures get carried out in private hospitals although very rarely the complex ones, which would otherwise be done in the NHS. But to do it they use doctors and nurses taken from the NHS who could otherwise be doing their work in the NHS and reducing their backlog. And as taxpayers we fund their training. Not the private hospitals.
3. I didn't say private medicine was the CAUSE of EU nationals leaving. I said it was one of the reasons the NHS has resource problems and it is LUNACY to be making it worse through Brexit.
As for the extra cash....governments successively make big gestures after underfunding the NHS by then throwing cash at it. To make any real difference, given the lead-times to train people and build hospitals, would take 5-10 years; ie several election cycles away. Governments don't want that.
So what actually happens is that the money gets spent outsourcing procedures to the private sector and the fundamental problem never gets fixed. Plus that money cycles from government into big business. Have a look at how much private healthcare companies give the Tories; they want this to continue. We are the mugs who let it.