Rugby world cup

[Jonathan]

Who did that, Ire after beating NZ?

Ireland beating the Boks. All got a bit OTT I thought.

[Jonathan]

Obviously not a RU fan, but that first half was just a fantastic piece of sporting drama. Fair play to both sides.

The intensity from both teams in that first half was off the scale.

[Jonathan]

It isn't, two of those quarter finals should've been the semi finals. Nobody doubts who the top four sides in the world are atm as they are streets ahead but the stupid draw made years ago pitted them earlier against each other yesterday.

I agree the draw looks ridiculous, but it is based on previous performances at World Cups, so England got a favourable draw having reached the final in 2019.
Ireland have still never won a knockout game since the first tournament back in 1987, so they won't get favourable draws.

The problem is teams evolve during the years between World Cups. England have been pretty rubbish the past few years in all honesty, they’ll get another favourable draw for the next WC.

But aside from the last one at home, England have a really good record at WC’s, always tend to go far. The one thing we have is good tournament nous. Bring your best game when it comes to knock out rugby.

[antdad]

There is some emphasis on the previous WC group placings but the seedings are really based on their rankings at the time. Ok the rankings are of course affected by their previous WC placings but nearly four years later Wales and England shouldn't have been seeded anywhere near group one.

Footy seeds their tournaments in the same year or thereabouts (I think) having said that without the lop sided draw many of those blockbuster games wouldn't have happened.

https://www.rugbyworldcup.com/2023/news ... -pool-draw

[antdad]

But aside from the last one at home, England have a really good record at WC’s, always tend to go far. The one thing we have is good tournament nous. Bring your best game when it comes to knock out rugby.

2003 - W
2007 - RU
2011 - 1/4
2015 - DNQ from group
2019 - RU
2023 - SF

Have a listen to Jordan's excellent podcast with Dallaglio, England should've done much better post 2003 win.

[subsub]

But aside from the last one at home, England have a really good record at WC’s, always tend to go far. The one thing we have is good tournament nous. Bring your best game when it comes to knock out rugby.

2003 - W
2007 - RU
2011 - 1/4
2015 - DNQ from group
2019 - RU
2023 - SF

Have a listen to Jordan's excellent podcast with Dallaglio, England should've done much better post 2003 win.

Three finals (including one victory) from six tournaments isn't a bad record.
England fell away pretty badly post-2003, IIRC, and surprised everyone by getting to the final with 'Dads Army' in 2007.
The gutting thing about 2019 was that we'd knocked out Australia and New Zealand en route to the final - beating South Africa would have been one hell of a victory, beating the top 3 southern hemisphere sides, but Sinckler was concussed in the opening minutes and our scrum was fucked from that moment on.

[antdad]

Sinckler going off didn't help but the England scrum would've been under huge pressure anyway plus SA had the "bomb squad" to come on later. They were completely outmuscled up front, England had the final shooting their load against NZ and bottled it by freezing in the final.

[The Ghost of Alex Higgins]

Hang on who has frozen and bottled their sperm?

[Jonathan]

But aside from the last one at home, England have a really good record at WC’s, always tend to go far. The one thing we have is good tournament nous. Bring your best game when it comes to knock out rugby.

2003 - W
2007 - RU
2011 - 1/4
2015 - DNQ from group
2019 - RU
2023 - SF

Have a listen to Jordan's excellent podcast with Dallaglio, England should've done much better post 2003 win.

Three finals (including one victory) from six tournaments isn't a bad record.
England fell away pretty badly post-2003, IIRC, and surprised everyone by getting to the final with 'Dads Army' in 2007.
The gutting thing about 2019 was that we'd knocked out Australia and New Zealand en route to the final - beating South Africa would have been one hell of a victory, beating the top 3 southern hemisphere sides, but Sinckler was concussed in the opening minutes and our scrum was fucked from that moment on.

In comparison to the other Northern Hemisphere teams, we have an outstanding record. I guess Wales were unlucky that the tournament didn’t exist when they were in their pomp.

[antdad]

Should be shouldn't it. Largest population, largest pool of players (10 x Wales) and therefore wealthiest RFU by some considerable margin.

[antdad]

Hang on who has frozen and bottled their sperm?

Those rugger buggers of course.

[subsub]

Should be shouldn't it. Largest population, largest pool of players (10 x Wales) and therefore wealthiest RFU by some considerable margin.

Not sure that really holds water any more, given the rule changes regarding eligibility.
Four of Ireland's seven starting backs are either Kiwi or Aussie, and Scotland's team is full of non-Scots.

[Zambo]

Should be shouldn't it. Largest population, largest pool of players (10 x Wales) and therefore wealthiest RFU by some considerable margin.

Not sure that really holds water any more, given the rule changes regarding eligibility.
Four of Ireland's seven starting backs are either Kiwi or Aussie, and Scotland's team is full of non-Scots.

Qualification for International sport has been a farce for decades.

Bundee Aki. Now there's a good Irish name for you. Born in Auckland.

Aki was qualified to play for New Zealand, where he was born and raised, and Samoa, the country of origin of his parents. However, after completing a three-year residency period, he became eligible to represent Ireland on the international stage.

[subsub]

Should be shouldn't it. Largest population, largest pool of players (10 x Wales) and therefore wealthiest RFU by some considerable margin.

Not sure that really holds water any more, given the rule changes regarding eligibility.
Four of Ireland's seven starting backs are either Kiwi or Aussie, and Scotland's team is full of non-Scots.

Qualification for International sport has been a farce for decades.

Bundee Aki. Now there's a good Irish name for you. Born in Auckland.

Aki was qualified to play for New Zealand, where he was born and raised, and Samoa, the country of origin of his parents. However, after completing a three-year residency period, he became eligible to represent Ireland on the international stage.

Yep.
If there's a family connection, that's one thing, but rugby is full of players who have zero connection with the country they play for.

[antdad]

It is what it is and England have had their fair share of imports over the years and no one bats an eyelid at the antipodeans raiding the South Pacific Islands for players. Bundee Aki's story is quite touching actually, he'd given up rugby to work in a bank to support his young family when he got a call for a trial from a NZ coach working in Ireland and the rest as they say is history.


Two points of discussion here are England's current progress in the competition compared to the other home nations and their World Cup record overall.

I have no idea why the authorities choose to seed the World Cup nearly four years before the competition but they've been complaining about it for decades. What it does though is favour the status quo (that's why) by giving the lesser nations a more difficult path so in this case as great as some of the games were it's quite ridiculous that say Ireland(1) be grouped with SA(2) and Scotland (5).

There are lots of mitigating factors like the state of the clubs in the Premiership and Borthwick is turning it around but a more accurate representation of England's status is their recent Home Nations record which has been very poor indeed.